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Post by Steve Gibbs on Nov 2, 2008 19:17:12 GMT -5
Q.#2 What do we learn about Holden based on his relationships with Ackley and Stradlater? Holden is annoyed by Ackley. Holden wants to be accepted by Stradlater. Ackley wants to be accepted by Holden. Ackley hates Stradlater. Stradlater uses Holden. Stradlater beats up Holden. Ackley kicks Holden out of his room.
What do we draw from this convoluted three-way relationship that helps us better understand Holden Caulfield?
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Post by ciaranissexy on Nov 3, 2008 23:51:41 GMT -5
i think, to a degree, that he does to ackley what stradlater does to him. and i think ackley, the kinda annoying kid that everyone knows, wants to be accepted but doesnt want to bend over backwords or change himself to fit someone elses needs. and stradlater is the cool kid that everyone loves, and hes nice to people on his social level, but to rejects like holden he just uses them for his own personal gain and nothing else. and holden just falls right in the middle of this relationship. he hates followers, yet hes becoming a sheep by doing to akley what stradlater does to him, just less discrete
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Post by abude11 on Nov 4, 2008 12:55:36 GMT -5
We learn that Holden has negative views of people. He's annoyed by Ackley and knows Stradler doesn't like him. Holden Caulfield can easily get annoyed by people.
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Post by puzapalooza on Nov 4, 2008 12:56:22 GMT -5
[glow=purple,2,300]I think Holden wants to be friends with Stadlater and doesn't realize Stadlater is using him - for homework. Ackley likes Holden but Holden doesn't like Ackley, he feels sorry for him. That is why Holden invited Ackley to the movies. Holden and Ackley are both trying to be friends with someone who doesn't want to be their friend. [/glow]
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Post by jasperthebear on Nov 4, 2008 12:56:26 GMT -5
We first learn that Holden is extremely judgemental and observant because he explains their behavior and analyzes their intentions a lot when he first mentions them. The fact that Ackley annoys him tells us that Holden is annoyed easily by little things. Things that probably wouldn't matter to most of us. Holden is willing to do Stradlater's homework and let him borrow his jacket for him to accept him but he doesn't let on that he's desperate for acceptance. The fact that they all end up fighting in the end just tells us that Holden does not act according to his feelings. He tries to hint to Ackley all the time to stop doing things so he must not try to be hurting his feelings. Holden is also stubborn and does not let people in. When Stradlater does not acknowledge him he gets angry and rips the composition up and yells at him some. He is not an expressive person.
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Post by maddiepie on Nov 4, 2008 12:58:29 GMT -5
It seems that Holden gets annoyed easily with Ackley but he still sees him as a friend and same with Stradlater. Holden knows that Stradlater is using and Holden wants to be accepted by him. He likes being freinds with Ackley because he likes to talk to him and annoy him.
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Post by bendover on Nov 4, 2008 13:00:11 GMT -5
He is highly oppinitated but he keeps his emotions hidden from others.
We can conclude that holden will side with whoever will win or better assist himself.
Holden is depsperate for acceptance but will not tell anyone about his emotions.
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benbo
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by benbo on Nov 4, 2008 15:09:22 GMT -5
I think this relationship shows 3 common social positions of teenagers: The jock, the outcast, and the nerd. The roles of these parts are Stradlater, Holden, and Ackley, respectively. Stradlater is very handsome, popular, and goes out with girls often. Holden, the outcast, notes this with a bit of what seems to be jealousy, because he has very limited friends. Stradlater takes advantage of this by being Holden's "friend", but also uses him for completing homework he is too lazy to do himself, among other things. Ackley has virtually no friends, and a very bare social life. Nobody even takes the time to understand him, or try to talk to him like a human being, except Holden. Holden expresses his sympathy, and feeling sorry for his looks and lack of friends. This situation defines Holden's social status at the school, as well as explaining what kind of people go there.
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Post by kennyferr on Nov 4, 2008 21:09:53 GMT -5
i think that Holden is kinda an ass to Ackley to try and impress Stradlater, because thats what Stradlater does to him. Its like a 10 year old, if u push them around there gonna take it out on someone smaller. In this case its more of Holden just looking for acceptance.the only bad part is that Holden doesn't realize that the only reason Stradlater even says two words to him is because Holden does his homework. On the flip side Ackley is just getting punked around by Holden so that Holden in his mind looks "cooler" to Stradlater.
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Post by lagrimas on Nov 5, 2008 1:52:00 GMT -5
i think this is kind of like a social ladder. you have stradlater at the top, ackley at the bottom, and holden in the middle. i think ackley thinks that stradlater isnt thaaat bad, but he can't change his mind now, he has his pride to uphold. stradlater is fine with holden, especially for the fact that holden seems to give in too easy. Holden doesn't want to get on stradlater's bad side or have him not like him 'cause then he'd jus be like ackley, at the bottom. basically ackley talks to holden cuz hes in the middle, holden talks to stradlater cuz hes at the top. everyone is striving to be higher in the "food chain."
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Post by tcollins on Nov 5, 2008 9:12:44 GMT -5
I think that Holden is trapped at this point. Stradtlater wants Holden to take care of all his needs, and Holden does it to be accepted. Ackley, doesn't like Stradtlater because he is popular and Ackley is this weird kid that not a lot of people like. Personally, I think Holden is trying to balance friends, but he doesn't quite know how. He thinks that by doing Stadtlaters bidding, that he will be accepted with the popular group. But he is treated like garbage. Holden does to Ackley, what Stradtlater does to Holden. And this is what keeps them from being true friends.
;D
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Post by tcollins on Nov 5, 2008 9:13:48 GMT -5
Puzapalooza, Do you think Stradtlater uses Holden for anything else besides homework?
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Post by paige14 on Nov 5, 2008 23:10:24 GMT -5
I think that Holden wants to be friends with Stradtler, but not Ackley. Holden doesn't realize how Stradtler is mean to him, he beats him up and uses him. Uses him for homework and his clothes. Ackley seems like he really wants to be friends with Holden.
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Post by lagrimas on Nov 7, 2008 0:57:36 GMT -5
Ackley wants to be in Holden's social class, nd Holden wants to be in Stradlater's social class. They all want to be more popular than they are and the only way they know how to move up is by sucking up to the next, higher status. [excluding Stradlater whose already at the top]
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Post by reyes92 on Nov 7, 2008 12:06:05 GMT -5
in my opinion i think Holden is more fond of Ackley than Stradlater. however i think much of the dislike just comes from the fact that stradlater went out with Jane. so you could also say that Holden is jealous. Holden seems to only really have two friends at Pencey if you could even call them that. when he is upset and angry with Stradlater he goes to Ackley, it Holden really disliked Ackley that much why would he go to him when he was upset and needed somebody to talk to? I think Holden tries really hard to impress Stradlater and really looks up to him but he is too proud to admit it and thats why he always criticizes how lond it takes Stradlater to get ready. i think this shows that Holden is a confused person who isn't really sure who his friends are.
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